Socrates 4 Today: “Is there a good or ‘best’ order in which to read the Dialogues of Plato”

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About The 'Socrates 4 Today' Project

Whether we like it or not, we all have important Life Choices to make, and these choices are largely ‘philosophical’ in nature. Knowing about some of the ideas of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle can help us all make more informed life choices today and live happier and more fulfilled lives as a result.

The Socrates 4 Today project is not an official group or institution of any kind, but rather an umbrella banner for a loose collection of friends (and occasionally friendly organisations) to carry out philosophy related activities. These friends all share the idea that the ancient (yet living) ‘real’ philosophy and wisdom of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle has relevance and importance for us all today.

While some of these friends might enjoy a more academic approach to this philosophy personally, they all share the view that philosophy is essentially a ‘practical’ subject, and is something to be applied to the way we live our lives – not just read about in a book. (Even Plato himself says, there is only so much you can learn about philosophy from a book!) Hence, there will be some blog posts about ‘practical philosophy’ projects along with the usual posts about the ideas of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

It is hoped that the Socrates 4 Today Project will help to make some of the central ideas and themes of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and some of the other Greek philosophers more relevant to a wider modern audience. ‘Real’ philosophy after all is said and done – is simply about giving people important tips for living a better, happier and more meaningful life. It is about making better and more informed Life Choices today, and trying to live wisely……

Friday 18 November 2011

“Is there a good or ‘best’ order in which to read the Dialogues of Plato”

Socrates and Plato – Bite Size Chunks – No. 4

(Posted by James Head - Autumn 2011)

Someone recently asked the following question on a Face book Group:

'I have been itching to really read the dialogues of Plato. And I finished “Alcibiades I” last night; which has me wondering what would be the best order to read the other dialogues? Thanks!'

My reply was as follows:

Well M - " Alcibiades 1" was a great place to start - since apparently that is the book that new students to Plato's academy always studied first - especially in the academy's later years when people like Proclus were running things. I hope you got loud and clear the message of "Know Thyself" from Alcibiades 1 :)

As to what order - my natural instincts are to use your gut feelings as to what to read next, or wait for people's recommendations. With this in mind I will recommend you read "Symposium" next - and I have reasons for doing that.

I am writing to a very knowledgeable friend on Plato this morning – Tim Addey, a founding member of the Prometheus Trust – and I will also ask him if he has any advice about the order in which to read the dialogues. :)

Tim Addey replied as follows:

Dear James,

In the late academy they had an order of study divided into 10 dialogues for what one might describe as "graduates" and then 2 further ones for "post graduates"; they ran -

First Alcibiades - for the reasons already discussed

Gorgias - because it allows us to understand the social structure we find ourselves in

Phaedo - because it shows the philosophic life to come, and purifies us from over-attachment to outer concerns

Cratylus - which begins our intellectual training by discussing words and names, from which everyone who investigates ideas must start

Theaetetus - which is about knowledge, and whether it can be found in sense perceptions

Sophist - which clarifies the relationship of ideas to each other

Statesman - which deals with natural philosophy

Phaedrus - the first contemplative and theological dialogue

Symposium - the second contemplative and theological dialogue

Philebus - in which Plato treats of the Good which is beyond all things.

Timaeus - the "perfect" cosmological/physical (in the broadest sense) dialogue

Parmenides - the "perfect" theological dialogue

This is according to the Anonymous Prolegomena to the Study of Platonic Philosophy - a late 5th century primer written by a teacher either in the Athenian or the Alexandrian academy. He notes that the Republic, the Laws and the Letters should also be studied in order to consider what he calls the ideal, the adapted and the reformed states respectively.

The Prometheus Trust has recently run workshops on the Phaedo, the Symposium and the Phaedrus, because these are more accessible to modern thinkers - the thought-life of the public in the ancient world resting on various assumptions now no longer common.

As you know we have two dialogues, the First Alcibiades and the Symposium in "Students' Edition" paperbacks with some supporting essays and extracts from Plotinus and Proclus; we hope to have a new SE paperback on the Sophist out next month, at which point we'll turn our attention to one on the Phaedo and then another on the Phaedrus.

If I was advising a reader studying on his own, I'd probably suggest a reading of these in the following order: Alcibiades, Phaedo, Phaedrus, Symposium, Sophist. After that, I'd read the Apology, the Meno and then the Republic.

Hope that helps.

Best wishes, Tim.

1 comment:

James16 December 2011 at 14:45
I hope to add a short "bite size chunk" on each of the books listed above in the new year 2012.
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Live Links List for Paperback Readers of ‘Life Choices (New Edition 2019) - Important Tips from Socrates, Plato and Aristotle

Links:

1. The Socrates 4 Today Blog - With articles / information / further links to podcasts, and a ‘live version’ of this list of links for you to click.

www.socrates4today.blogspot.gr

2. Informal Talks / Walks in Athens with James

www.meetup.com/Athens-Philosophy-Talks-Walks-and-Discussions-with-James

3. New Acropolis Museum, Athens

www.theacropolismuseum.gr/en

4. Marinus’ Affectionate Essay on the Life of His Teacher Proclus – aka ‘On Happiness’

www.jameslongerstuff.blogspot.gr

5. Delphi Archaeological Museum

www.e-delphi.gr

6. Disaster at the Clothing Factory in Samar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Savar_building_collapse

7. Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders)

www.doctorswithoutborders.org

8. Companions for that Long Voyage – Blogpost

http://jamesphilosophicalagora.blogspot.com/2011/05/companions-for-that-long-voyage-know.html

9. New Acropolis Philosophical Organisation. This is the link for the London group but they have groups all over the world.

www.newacropolisuk.org

10. The Prometheus Trust with various resources to download including: Hermeas’ Commentary on The Phaedrus

www.prometheustrust.co.uk/html/files_to_download.html

11. ‘Aristotle’ by Dr A E Taylor

http://store.doverpublications.com/0486202801.html

12. Diotima on Love – Extracts from Symposium:

www.socrates4today.blogspot.com/2015/10/diotima-on-love-extracts.html

13. Movie trailer for ‘The Big Short’ that describes some of the problems leading up to the 2008 global economic crisis:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWr8hbUkG9s

14. Practical Philosophy - Environment – Having the option at least to refill plastic waters bottles:

www.socrates4today.blogspot.com/2018/12/environment-water-bottles-refill-option.html

15. The Population and Sustainability Network (PSN) is the international programme of the Margaret Pyke Trust. (Registered UK Charity No: 1064672) PSN is a group led by volunteer London doctors from their own offices. All money donated to PSN goes to the intended purpose, unlike many ‘organisations’ with expensive staffs and offices. PSN works to advance the understanding of the relationships between population, health and sustainable development issues; and promotes integrated approaches to help solve these interconnected challenges. PSN also advocates the empowerment of women, family planning and sex education. I believe that future generations will be grateful that we ‘started’ to investigate the ideas of a ‘sustainable global population’ and ‘moderate and real sustainable living’ at the start of the 21^stcentury – as population now rapidly approaches 7.5 billion people; many of whom will have greater expectations in terms of ‘stuff’ that they want than any previous generation since Socrates’ time. (Keep in mind that the upper estimate for the global population just 200 years ago was only 1.125 billion!)

http://populationandsustainability.org

16. PRAXSIS is an independent Non-Governmental Organisation (NGO) whose main goal is the design, application and implementation of humanitarian programs and medical interventions in Athens and other parts of Greece. It is inspiring to see their small fleet of ambulances parked on street corners, largely staffed by young volunteers, providing basic medical care and support for those most in need.

www.praksis.gr/en/about-praksis

Life Choices: Some Recommended Further Reading:

1. ‘Aristotle’ by Dr A. E. Taylor for an excellent and succinct overview of Aristotle’s main areas of study and writing. Alfred Edward Taylor (1869 – 1945) was a fellow of the British Academy (1911) and president of the Aristotelian Society from 1928 to 1929. At Oxford he was made an honorary fellow of New College in 1931.

2. Plato’s Book The Symposium(The Drinking Party) which concerns a number of speakers at a party each giving a talk on the subject of love. Socrates gives one of these speeches which includes within it the wise words of Diotima, a mysterious older woman who instructs Socrates in his youth about love. Diotima also describes a ‘philosophical’ progression in love; which is relevant to the ‘path of the philosopher’. There is an extract available on the Socrates 4 Today Blog (See links list.

3. Plutarch (46 to 120 CE – and not the latter Neo Platonist ‘Plutarch of Athens’) wrote two works still extant, the well-known Lives, and the lesser known Moraliaconsisting of 26 easily read, informative, succinct and entertaining essays on various aspects of ordinary life. The Moralia is very recommended for those seeking to be ‘real’ philosophers. For example, one of these essays is simply titled: ‘How one may be aware of one's progress in virtue’. This amusing essay is full of sensible down to earth tips for young travellers, new philosophers, and older searchers – since one’s progress in virtue is synonymous with one’s progress in ‘real’ philosophy. You may wish to download this book of essays from Amazon at: www.amazon.com/dp/B0082W83DOWhether you read the book or not, remember Plutarch’s important tip: ‘’Furthermore, take care, in reading the writings of philosophers or hearing their speeches that you do not attend to words more than things, nor get attracted more by what is difficult and curious than by what is serviceable and solid and useful.’There is another essay which suggests that friendships do not just have to be defined as sexual or non-sexual – but there is a third way – the sacred.

4. Plotinus (204 to 270 CE) the ‘early’ Neo Platonist was an accomplished philosopher in his on right and often has many charming Platonic echoes in his writings. He is straightforward and understandable. For example, his Essay (Treatise) On the Beautifulfinishes with several useful practical tips on how to make our own lives and actions more beautiful. (www.amazon.com/Essay-Beautiful-Greek-Plotinus-ebook/dp/B0082UI87W )

5. Perhaps try the considerable and varied resources of: The Prometheus Trust. For example, you can download extracts from ‘Hermeas’ commentary on The Phaedrus’ if you want to go deeper into this particular Platonic dialogue. There are also a number of short articles and succinct essays available to download. (See links list.)

6. There is a blog Socrates 4 Today (see links list) where I try to provide important extracts and pieces for people exploring Socrates, Plato and Aristotle more – but with limited time to read longer books cover to cover.

7. The Emperor's New Mind: Concerning Computers, Minds, and the Laws of Physics by eminent mathematician and theoretical physicist Roger Penrose. (2016 Oxford Landmark Science) This is definitely a book for more mathematically minded readers as it discusses the limitations of algorithms (the things that basically make computers function) to perform certain tasks. Mr. Penrose therefore suggests Artificial Intelligence (A.I.) will never be able to match human intelligence on certain things, especially where intuition is required. He also states openly his belief in the ‘Platonic reality’ (of Ideas and Forms] of ‘some’ mathematical ideas, and gives his scientific reasoning for this. This open minded approach, spiced with regular intellectual humility throughout his book, is most refreshing from a scientist of such great stature and influence as Mr. Penrose. There is also a fascinating observation made that all computers of given standard can run the same software programs on them, and there is not much to distinguish between the individual ‘hardware’. This prompts us to consider whether it is the same with human bodies and brains which are also all pretty similar in structure.

Why not spend 2 or 3 days in Delphi …. instead of just taking a day trip from Athens? Delphi in ancient times was considered the centre of the known world and was the spiritual centre of Greece. This was the place on earth where the human being could be as close to the Gods as it was possible to get. Many people say that even today Delphi has very special and positive ‘vibes’ and energy; and that is why it is a good idea to spend a relaxing 2 or 3 days there rather than just a rushed and sweaty 2 or 3 hours there like most ‘day trippers’ do who come from Athens for the day.

For most day trippers the two main things to think about when they get to Delphi is where to get some lunch and what time the bus is leaving to go back to Athens. If you come to Delphi for 2 or 3 days – you have time to think about a whole different bunch of stuff and enjoy the spectacular natural environment here; and soak up the special positive vibes and energy of this small friendly town. For More Info Click: '3 Days In Delphi' ) or click on the image below:

What’s the Purpose of ‘real’ Greek Philosophy? Is it some kind of Religion?

This is a very normal question for people to ask when they begin to study ‘real’ Greek philosophy. Greek Philosophy (or rather the questions and ideas discussed in this philosophy) is of interest to people from many different religions – or no religion at all. The philosophy is about the love and admiration of all that is real, good and true. It’s about examining the world around us and making better and more informed practical choices for our own lives. Its about examining ‘preferable ways of living’.

The ‘Socrates 4 Today’ Project aims to provide information on various topics from Socratic philosophy which are hopefully succinct, interesting and thought provoking. This information can be shared in various formats – such as face to face talks and discussions, blogs, books, Skype sessions, theatre, music, or however this very informal network of like minded friends decides to share their own personal enthusiasm for Socratic philosophy.

It is hoped that this umbrella project will help to make some of the central ideas and themes of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and the other Greek philosophers more relevant to a wider modern audience. Philosophy after all is said and done – is simply about giving people tips on living a happier and more fulfilling life….

For further details about the current and future projects of the Socrates 4 Today network contact: socrates4today@gmail.com

Remember the Delphi Message (the two Delphi Maxims): ‘Know Yourself’ and ‘Live Moderately and Sustainably’

Socrates says that to start any path we must first know where we are, who we are, and according to Socrates at least: ‘what we are’. (Ref: Plato – First Alcibiades)

In ancient times, the Delphi Messages of 'Know Yourself' and 'Live Moderately’ were inscribed above the entrance to the Temple of Apollo in Delphi. They are two of the central pillars of our Western civilisation..... and very important for us all to understand just a little better.

Are You a Philosopher?

If you ‘wonder’ about things and have the curiosity to find out when your do not know something then you are a philosopher. Philosophy is simply the love of wisdom and trying to make ourselves a little bit wiser as we go through life. However, we will not search for wisdom in a range of topics and areas unless we have enough curiosity to find things out: 'to wonder I suppose'.

By clicking onto this website and similar ones; by reading books on the various subjects raised; attending some lectures from time to time, or simply by just thinking about things and talking to your friends about various important subjects you start to become philosophers as well.

The only other thing that you really need to be a philosopher is to keep an open mind on various subjects when you start to consider them. We must also accept that sometimes we do not know all the answers – and should therefore need to investigate a subject a little further.

Socrates said that: ‘….the un-investigated life is not worth living’.

More details of this embryonic project will be posted on this blog as they develop. It is envisaged that this project will start as a ‘summer school’ where people can come for a few days, or a week or two at different times of the year; perhaps during the academic holidays or while ‘travelling’. Over time it is hoped more and more friends of ‘real’ Greek philosophy will pass through the The Little Academy of Athens, and as a result, shine more brightly and consistently in their own part of the world.

About James Head

James Head was born and educated in the UK; and has an honours degree in education from Exeter University. For many years he has been a committed philosopher, and his life now revolves around sharing 'real' Greek philosophy with others. He regularly speaks and writes on the essential ideas of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. James has lived in Greece for many years, mainly in Ancient Delphi where he feels philosophically and 'spiritually' at home. These days he divides his time between Delphi, Athens and London.