About This Blog

About The 'Socrates 4 Today' Project

Whether we like it or not, we all have important Life Choices to make, and these choices are largely ‘philosophical’ in nature. Knowing about some of the ideas of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle can help us all make more informed life choices today and live happier and more fulfilled lives as a result.

The Socrates 4 Today project is not an official group or institution of any kind, but rather an umbrella banner for a loose collection of friends (and occasionally friendly organisations) to carry out philosophy related activities. These friends all share the idea that the ancient (yet living) ‘real’ philosophy and wisdom of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle has relevance and importance for us all today.

While some of these friends might enjoy a more academic approach to this philosophy personally, they all share the view that philosophy is essentially a ‘practical’ subject, and is something to be applied to the way we live our lives – not just read about in a book. (Even Plato himself says, there is only so much you can learn about philosophy from a book!) Hence, there will be some blog posts about ‘practical philosophy’ projects along with the usual posts about the ideas of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

It is hoped that the Socrates 4 Today Project will help to make some of the central ideas and themes of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and some of the other Greek philosophers more relevant to a wider modern audience. ‘Real’ philosophy after all is said and done – is simply about giving people important tips for living a better, happier and more meaningful life. It is about making better and more informed Life Choices today, and trying to live wisely……

Thursday 25 June 2020


Plotinus’ Treatise on the Beautiful (Ennead I, vi )

‘Try to raise the divine in yourself to the divine in all…..’

This blog on Plotinus is based on the online ‘meet up’ talk I gave in June 2020. It will appeal to anyone wanting to dig a bit deeper into Plato’s theory of forms – and his World of Perfect Ideas or Forms. In particular we will be looking at the Perfect Idea of Form of Beauty, which while including beautiful looks – also includes beautiful views, beautiful personalities, beautiful composition, and indeed ‘Beauty’ in the widest sense of the word.



It may sound as if this blog post is only about abstract and vague intellectual ideas (‘The Beautiful’ in this case……); and while it is about this in part - it is also going deeper - perhaps much deeper - into how Plato thought that we could live more  ‘ethically’ or ‘correctly and better’ - and indeed more ‘beautifully’ ourselves in the real world. In order to do this Plato believes that we need first to have some understanding of what the Idea of Beauty and the Beautiful really is in essence…..

Keep in mind also, that while we are largely discussing how we could live better ‘personally’, Plato and Plotinus’s views also apply to us as groups and communities of people (e.g. cities and countries); and about how our leaders make decisions on our behalf.
It is a fundamental principle of Platonic ethics and living 'the good life' that you have to try and improve yourself; and then after that try to improve the things and people around you in a practical way. ‘Real Greek philosophy’ is to a greater extent a ‘practical’ subject and only in part an intellectual pursuit, and often only then as a preliminary activity to action. If this is the case, then we need to look deeper at the link between the theoretical metaphysics of Plato– and his practical ethics of how to live our lives in the best possible way.
Remember metaphysics’ is simply the big stuff that is hard to prove – or disprove - with our usual science. Metaphysics is literally ‘above’ our known scientific principles.  Plato believed that there was another world all around us that we cannot usually see with our eyes, but it is actually there; and that in some ways this is the real world - in the sense of it being more important than the world of the senses that we see all around us and that we interact with using our human bodily senses.
The other ‘invisible’ world, to put it simply, we can only interact with and ‘see’ by using our mind and intellects - and in this world Ideas can actually exist on their own without any material examples of them. To ‘see’ in this this other world we are advised to close our eyes – and use our intellect to see and appreciate things. For example, we are all sitting on chairs which were ideas before they became material chairs, and perhaps you will be drinking a wine or a beer (or maybe two) later tonight which were also ideas before they came into being. While we can all appreciate these ‘visual’ and ‘ordinary’ material examples of ideas becoming “things and stuff” this is only half the story. Plato believed in a separate world of 'Perfect Ideas', which he calls ‘The Forms’ (hence Plato’s Theory of the Forms) where the basic or first idea (let’s call it a template idea) for everything exists in a perfect way
Now although chairs etc are very useful things, and easy visual examples to discuss, this Theory of the Forms also applies to other less visible or tangible concepts such as justice, courage, moderation and importantly for tonight’s talk ‘Beauty’ in this other unseen world, and here in our world, the sensible world of the bodily senses, we only see or witness ‘particular’ examples of these things.
I am not saying I agree or disagree – I am just giving a little background on deeper Platonic thought and his metaphysics. Now it is thought that Plato changed his views on this as he went through life - so it’s not a dogma he is suggesting - but something we should consider and contemplate as we try to get a fix on how the reality we live in really is - and decide how we are going to live our lives in the best possible way within that reality.
Plato also suggests that the universe and everything in it has been created or has flowed out of the one source or fountain of everything, which is beyond all description, and which he calls ‘the One’ and/or ‘the Good’. (A kind of divine fountain or source of everything…..)
According to the writings of Plato “the One” and the Good and very closely aligned – and almost different aspects of the same thing. Therefore, if we could get closer to and understand better ‘the Good’, then we would get closer to ‘The One” – the divine source.  Remember these things are ‘invisible’ Ideas – only knowable with our intellects – and not our usual senses – such as sight or sound.
In Platonic thinking the ‘contemplation and investigation’ of what the truly good and beautiful way to live is (and what the correct specific action to take in a given situation in the real world is) - is a pre requisite and first step in us choosing to live that way. Simply put, if we always act quickly and impulsively, we might do the right thing; but usually it’s better to consider what the right thing to do is before we take any action….both as individuals or leaders of a city or group.
In other words, we are looking at the idea of ‘Beauty’ in its essence (or Platonic form) - tonight to see if Plotinus suggests how we should live our life. We could of course have decided to look at other important Ideas such as Goodness, Courage and Fortitude, Moderation, Wisdom, Justice.
Socrates clearly believes in the actual existence of these perfect Ideas or Forms – and the Idea of Perfect beauty in the ‘Platonic’ sense of the word. He says that (Plato-Phaedo-100d/e):
‘….. nothing makes a thing beautiful but the presence and participation of Beauty in whatever way or manner obtained; for as to the manner I am uncertain, but I stoutly contend that by Beauty all beautiful things become beautiful. This appears to me to be the safest answer which I can give, either to myself or to another, and to this I cling, in the persuasion that this principle will never be overthrown, and that to myself or to anyone who asks the question, I may safely reply, that by Beauty beautiful things become beautiful’.
He then applies this notion to other eternal Ideas such as Greatness. According to Socrates nothing becomes great without participating in the idea of Greatness. He also says that there is no way anything comes into existence except by participation with its own proper essence or Form.
He also says that something cannot partake of two opposite perfect Ideas at the same time – for example hot and cold. A bowel of soup cannot be hot and cold at the same time – it can only move from one state of being to the other in stages….. It is a gradual process……
Let me just add a quick storey here that I call ‘The Piano Player’ which kind of fits in here – about moving from one state of being to another. Imagine a friend introduces me to someone who is an experienced concert pianist who sometimes offers instruction to other pianists. Imagine also that I have been planning to learn the piano at some point in my life, and although I have never bought a piano played one I did buy a book ‘piano for dummies’ last week albeit I haven’t read it yet. If I then say to this concert pianist that I would be grateful if he could give me a lesson it makes me seem ridiculous to people; since this pianist has so many insights to offer experienced pianists that are trying to improve.
….. And in general, learning or understanding better anything - gets better or more productive the more you know about something in the first place. A good guitarist could really learn something from Eric Clapton; a good artist could similarly learn from Leonardo da Vinci. A good sculptor from Michelangelo. The person who hasn’t made any effort at the guitar, painting or sculpture wouldn’t learn as much and might not even understand some of the things the expert is explaining. This principle applies even more for someone wanting to follow the philosophical path -or simply to try and live a little bit better. A bad selfish and greedy man does not go to bed one evening and wake up as a good man in the morning…. It also follows that the better and more ‘beautiful’ a person you are - the closer and easier it will be to understand the perfect ideas of The One, The Good and The Beautiful…..  You simply cannot recognise and know something – if you have no idea about that thing….. For example again, only a dedicated and trained mathematician can appreciate fully some high powered mathematical concepts ….
There is another problem – even for dedicated and experienced philosophers trying to following the right path. Contemplating the Good and The One is very difficult for everyone– and much harder than contemplating some of the other template Ideas or Forms….. 
Plato suggests that The Beautiful is the visible expression of the Good……..   and we can more easily see and understand examples of beautiful things around us (beautiful people – on the inside and out – beautiful sunsets and views ….. beautiful actions and behaviours - and we can listen to beautiful music etc……. So “if” we can get to understand a little better what the Beautiful actually is…… it helps us to understand what The Good is – and this in turn helps to give us some idea of what ‘The One’ is…..  since they are closely related….. Plato suggests that understanding ‘the Beautiful’ could be a stepping stone towards understanding the good. This blog is only trying to present an ‘overview’ of these things…..
This idea of steadily moving and working towards where you want to be with something being important in many fields of endeavour…… (like the piano player I just mentioned) .. includes if you are trying to be a good or ‘beautiful’ person - (again in its broadest sense) person. In Platonic thinking - the better and more beautiful a person you are - the easier it will be to understand and better the perfect ideas of The Beautiful, The Good, and who knows…. even The One
[Side Note:  someone trying to pick a beautiful diamond out of the bag of fake diamonds will find it very hard to do if he or she does not really know what a real diamond looks like. Choosing the real diamond will be guesswork at best; and might at worse be related to our physical senses and desires. E.g. someone might simply choose the biggest and shiniest looking diamond in the bag.]

So let’s discuss now what Plotinus has to say about this other worldly idea of ‘The Beautiful and the Good’ to see if it can help us get our own fix on these things – or at least help guide us with our own contemplation or search for the Beautiful… and the Good ….. and I suppose if we are very fortunate The One or the divine source of everything….
Short Biography of Plotinus
Plotinus was born in 204/205 C.E. apx in Egypt, the exact location of which is unknown. In his mid-twenties we do know he gravitated to Alexandria, where he attended the lectures of various philosophers, not finding satisfaction with any until he discovered the teacher Ammonius Saccas. He remained with Ammonius until 242 (ie about 20 years), at which time he joined up with the Emperor Gordian on an expedition to Persia, for the purpose, it seems, of engaging the famed philosophers of that country in the pursuit of wisdom. The expedition never met its destination, for Gordian was assassinated on the way in Mesopotamia, and Plotinus returned to Rome to set up his own philosophy school. (He was about 40 at this time) He taught philosophy in Rome for twenty years before the arrival of a special student to his school called Porphyry, who was destined to become his most famous pupil, as well as his biographer and the editor of his various writings…..
It was at this time, encouraged by Porphyry, that Plotinus (in his 60’s) began to collect his lecture notes / treatise and essays into any systematic form, and to compose new ones. His writings on various subjects are collectively known as The Enneads – and we are going to look at one of them this evening. (Although Plotinus regarded Plato as the ultimate authority on all things philosophical, he was known to have disagreed with him on occasions. After all – he was a great thinker and philosopher in his own right……   eg  Ennead IV.8.1 )
Plotinus is regarded by many as the father of the Neo Platonists and Neoplatonic movement -  since he was a great admirer of Plato, and refers to him along with many other philosophers in his writings; and indeed makes engaging references to Plato’s writings – using similar symbols and metaphors…...
Without going too far into this for this blog – suffice to say we should be cautious of thinking that all the Neo Platonists were the same and had similar views. This just isn’t the case since they covered a period of some 350 years – from say the founding of Plotinus’ school in Rome to the closing of all the philosophy schools in Athens around 520 CE. For example, some 200 years after Plotinus there was a another group of philosophers in Athens who are also regarded as Neo Platonists by many as they offer many commentaries and explanations of Plato. However, in my view, some of these ‘latter’ Neo Platonists of Athens (rather than the earlier Neo Platonists like Plotinus and Porphyry of the 3rd century CE based in Rome) seem to be given much more dogmatically and prescriptively than those of the original philosophers Socrates and Plato who they claim to be explaining. It is an interesting subject for another talk maybe - but for the moment just be cautious of thinking that all the Neoplatonists were the same and shared the same ideas and views.
A final biographical point on Plotinus is that we should not make the mistake of regarding Plotinus as nothing more than a commentator on Plato, albeit a brilliant, entertaining and very understandable one. He was an original and profound thinker in his own right who wrote his own philosophical ideas as well. It is true that he borrowed and re-worked many things that he found useful from earlier thinkers such as Plato, and even from his opponents, in order to construct his essays and treatises. This great thinker and writer Plotinus died in solitude at Campania Italy in 270 C.E.
Let us now look at one of Plotinus’ pieces or Enneads that is Ennead I, part vi   which is sometimes known as his Treatise on The Beautiful. The piece itself is only 10 to 12 pages long - but it is a bit long for a blog post discussion. I have therefore chosen 3 extracts to give you a good flavour of what’s going on. (Refer to a previous post on this blog on 15th May 2020 for the "Text Extracts". Alternatively, the full piece to read if you wish is available at:  
(Extract A) Plotinus tries to describe Beauty and define it
Notice:

-         We are talking about Beauty in its very widest sense…
-         The connection and similarities between the ‘idea’ of Beauty in the divine world, and this other visible world of the senses. (This crops up with The Cave and The Phaedrus. In the Phaedrus the lover sees a beautiful face in this world - but is reminded of the divine Beauty he once saw when his soul - not attached to his earthly body - followed a God to the outer heavens. You will see that Plotinus in his various writings often includes and refers very directly to some Platonic passages, themes and myths.
(Extract B) – The Importance of Virtue and Living Correctly

Notice:
-         Beautiful ways of life….
-          Being in control of ‘lusts’. (… Although Plato never suggests that being in love with someone - of physical intimacy is a bad thing at the appropriate time. This is different to someone who is a slave to their desires whether that be drink, sex, money or whatever. None of these things are necessarily bad providing we are in control and act appropriately with some moderation – according to Plato at least.
-           
(Extract C – Parts 1 and 2) Acting and living ‘beautifully’ (i.e How to Make Ourselves More Beautiful a both from a theoretical and practical point of view……) Pt 1 = ‘Theoretically’ and Pt 2 = ‘Practically’

Notice:
-         To actually “see” the perfect Beauty is the challenge
-         How to find it or see it. (We must shut our eyes to see…)
-         Not visible to the profane – (ties in with my piano player storey and being able to see the true diamond in the bag.) We will not see the Beautiful if we do not have ‘some idea’ what it is we are looking for…..
-         Finding our way
-         Looking after and finishing our own personal ‘statues’
-         Plotinus suggests that our goal should not simply be to live like a good person - but to live perfectly and beautifully like a God?

Some closing remarks if I may…..
So that’s a flavour of what Plotinus writes about Beauty. He tries to define what beauty actually is (which is a good place to start any philosophical discussion or contemplation) - and comes to a working definition at least that will do for his own purposes…… He then talks about the process of improving ourselves by living in virtue and living ‘correctly’ however we define this – again for our own purposes.   This is just the path or part of the process in achieving or seeing real Beauty in ourselves which is necessary if we are to be able to recognise divine Beauty at all. If you remember, I talked about only good piano players being able to learn from a great piano player – and not the beginners. There is a need for time and effort from us in the early stages.
Then later on in Plotinus’ essay he talks about us actually seeing ‘the Good and the Beautiful’ (there are echoes of Plato’s Phaedrus here which talks about the ascent of the soul represented by a chariot with 2 horses; and of Plat’s myth of the Cave);  and us not just ‘aspiring’ to be that way (like a God) but to actually live in a godlike way ourselves. Platonic philosophy is not just about reading books, discussing and observing – its about actually LIVING that way……. 
However, if we want to live in a good and beautiful way – FIRST we have to explore what these ideas actually mean in their purest sense – and then only secondly focus our attentions on trying to achieve them…… since ‘trying’ is an important part of Plato’s ethical living.
Plotinus uses the attractive and very understandable metaphor of a sculptor trying to make his statue as good as he possibly can by making small improvements here and there towards the end…… And he suggests that we should look at ourselves in the same way as we go through life - and make small improvements regularly to ourselves where we can….
In many of the talks I have given previously I have tried to strip away the extra details of Platonic philosophy so the we can grasp the essential ideas underneath. (A bit like unwrapping a Christmas present that has been over wrapped with too much string, tape and layers of paper…..) 
However, tonight we have gone the other way – and looked a bit deeper into the details of why Plato’s essential Ideas or Theory of Forms (and his metaphysics) are important to consider and understand a little…… as it helps us get a grasp at a true  understanding of the things around us…. or that we could have around us….. In part, it offers us another layer of reasoning and motivation to live in a certain way….. when on the face of it, carrying on as we are in some matters is more appealing to our down to earth senses and primal desires……
I hope you have enjoyed this small taste of Plotinus - and begin to see the importance of Plato’s Forms - and this world of ideas a little clearer…… We don’t have to agree with everything Plato, Socrates – or Plotinus says - but they can give us important signposts to follow as we make our own search for the Beautiful, the Good, and then who knows - even the One or the Divine itself… […. Since these things remember, according to Plato, are all closely related….]
I leave you with the final words of Plotinus who on his deathbed said to his friends and students gathered there:
‘Try to raise the divine in yourself to the divine in all…..’


Live Links List for Paperback Readers of ‘Life Choices (New Edition 2019) - Important Tips from Socrates, Plato and Aristotle

Links:

1. The Socrates 4 Today Blog - With articles / information / further links to podcasts, and a ‘live version’ of this list of links for you to click.

www.socrates4today.blogspot.gr

2. Informal Talks / Walks in Athens with James

www.meetup.com/Athens-Philosophy-Talks-Walks-and-Discussions-with-James

3. New Acropolis Museum, Athens

www.theacropolismuseum.gr/en

4. Marinus’ Affectionate Essay on the Life of His Teacher Proclus – aka ‘On Happiness’

www.jameslongerstuff.blogspot.gr

5. Delphi Archaeological Museum

www.e-delphi.gr

6. Disaster at the Clothing Factory in Samar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Savar_building_collapse

7. Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders)

www.doctorswithoutborders.org

8. Companions for that Long Voyage – Blogpost

http://jamesphilosophicalagora.blogspot.com/2011/05/companions-for-that-long-voyage-know.html

9. New Acropolis Philosophical Organisation. This is the link for the London group but they have groups all over the world.

www.newacropolisuk.org

10. The Prometheus Trust with various resources to download including: Hermeas’ Commentary on The Phaedrus

www.prometheustrust.co.uk/html/files_to_download.html

11. ‘Aristotle’ by Dr A E Taylor

http://store.doverpublications.com/0486202801.html

12. Diotima on Love – Extracts from Symposium:

www.socrates4today.blogspot.com/2015/10/diotima-on-love-extracts.html

13. Movie trailer for ‘The Big Short’ that describes some of the problems leading up to the 2008 global economic crisis:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWr8hbUkG9s

14. Practical Philosophy - Environment – Having the option at least to refill plastic waters bottles:

www.socrates4today.blogspot.com/2018/12/environment-water-bottles-refill-option.html

15. The Population and Sustainability Network (PSN) is the international programme of the Margaret Pyke Trust. (Registered UK Charity No: 1064672) PSN is a group led by volunteer London doctors from their own offices. All money donated to PSN goes to the intended purpose, unlike many ‘organisations’ with expensive staffs and offices. PSN works to advance the understanding of the relationships between population, health and sustainable development issues; and promotes integrated approaches to help solve these interconnected challenges. PSN also advocates the empowerment of women, family planning and sex education. I believe that future generations will be grateful that we ‘started’ to investigate the ideas of a ‘sustainable global population’ and ‘moderate and real sustainable living’ at the start of the 21stcentury – as population now rapidly approaches 7.5 billion people; many of whom will have greater expectations in terms of ‘stuff’ that they want than any previous generation since Socrates’ time. (Keep in mind that the upper estimate for the global population just 200 years ago was only 1.125 billion!)

http://populationandsustainability.org

16. PRAXSIS is an independent Non-Governmental Organisation (NGO) whose main goal is the design, application and implementation of humanitarian programs and medical interventions in Athens and other parts of Greece. It is inspiring to see their small fleet of ambulances parked on street corners, largely staffed by young volunteers, providing basic medical care and support for those most in need.

www.praksis.gr/en/about-praksis

Life Choices: Some Recommended Further Reading:

1. ‘Aristotle’ by Dr A. E. Taylor for an excellent and succinct overview of Aristotle’s main areas of study and writing. Alfred Edward Taylor (1869 – 1945) was a fellow of the British Academy (1911) and president of the Aristotelian Society from 1928 to 1929. At Oxford he was made an honorary fellow of New College in 1931.

2. Plato’s Book The Symposium(The Drinking Party) which concerns a number of speakers at a party each giving a talk on the subject of love. Socrates gives one of these speeches which includes within it the wise words of Diotima, a mysterious older woman who instructs Socrates in his youth about love. Diotima also describes a ‘philosophical’ progression in love; which is relevant to the ‘path of the philosopher’. There is an extract available on the Socrates 4 Today Blog (See links list.

3. Plutarch (46 to 120 CE – and not the latter Neo Platonist ‘Plutarch of Athens’) wrote two works still extant, the well-known Lives, and the lesser known Moraliaconsisting of 26 easily read, informative, succinct and entertaining essays on various aspects of ordinary life. The Moralia is very recommended for those seeking to be ‘real’ philosophers. For example, one of these essays is simply titled: ‘How one may be aware of one's progress in virtue’. This amusing essay is full of sensible down to earth tips for young travellers, new philosophers, and older searchers – since one’s progress in virtue is synonymous with one’s progress in ‘real’ philosophy. You may wish to download this book of essays from Amazon at: www.amazon.com/dp/B0082W83DOWhether you read the book or not, remember Plutarch’s important tip: ‘’Furthermore, take care, in reading the writings of philosophers or hearing their speeches that you do not attend to words more than things, nor get attracted more by what is difficult and curious than by what is serviceable and solid and useful.’There is another essay which suggests that friendships do not just have to be defined as sexual or non-sexual – but there is a third way – the sacred.

4. Plotinus (204 to 270 CE) the ‘early’ Neo Platonist was an accomplished philosopher in his on right and often has many charming Platonic echoes in his writings. He is straightforward and understandable. For example, his Essay (Treatise) On the Beautifulfinishes with several useful practical tips on how to make our own lives and actions more beautiful. (www.amazon.com/Essay-Beautiful-Greek-Plotinus-ebook/dp/B0082UI87W )

5. Perhaps try the considerable and varied resources of: The Prometheus Trust. For example, you can download extracts from ‘Hermeas’ commentary on The Phaedrus’ if you want to go deeper into this particular Platonic dialogue. There are also a number of short articles and succinct essays available to download. (See links list.)

6. There is a blog Socrates 4 Today (see links list) where I try to provide important extracts and pieces for people exploring Socrates, Plato and Aristotle more – but with limited time to read longer books cover to cover.

7. The Emperor's New Mind: Concerning Computers, Minds, and the Laws of Physics by eminent mathematician and theoretical physicist Roger Penrose. (2016 Oxford Landmark Science) This is definitely a book for more mathematically minded readers as it discusses the limitations of algorithms (the things that basically make computers function) to perform certain tasks. Mr. Penrose therefore suggests Artificial Intelligence (A.I.) will never be able to match human intelligence on certain things, especially where intuition is required. He also states openly his belief in the ‘Platonic reality’ (of Ideas and Forms] of ‘some’ mathematical ideas, and gives his scientific reasoning for this. This open minded approach, spiced with regular intellectual humility throughout his book, is most refreshing from a scientist of such great stature and influence as Mr. Penrose. There is also a fascinating observation made that all computers of given standard can run the same software programs on them, and there is not much to distinguish between the individual ‘hardware’. This prompts us to consider whether it is the same with human bodies and brains which are also all pretty similar in structure.

Why not spend 2 or 3 days in Delphi …. instead of just taking a day trip from Athens? Delphi in ancient times was considered the centre of the known world and was the spiritual centre of Greece. This was the place on earth where the human being could be as close to the Gods as it was possible to get. Many people say that even today Delphi has very special and positive ‘vibes’ and energy; and that is why it is a good idea to spend a relaxing 2 or 3 days there rather than just a rushed and sweaty 2 or 3 hours there like most ‘day trippers’ do who come from Athens for the day.


For most day trippers the two main things to think about when they get to Delphi is where to get some lunch and what time the bus is leaving to go back to Athens. If you come to Delphi for 2 or 3 days – you have time to think about a whole different bunch of stuff and enjoy the spectacular natural environment here; and soak up the special positive vibes and energy of this small friendly town. For More Info Click: '3 Days In Delphi' ) or click on the image below:



I guess many philosophers like to walk in 'special' places like Delphi....