Socrates & Plato - “Bite Size Chunk” – No. 1
(Posted by James Head - Autumn 2011)
(Posted by James Head - Autumn 2011)
People often talk about the Socratic-Platonic philosophical tradition as if they are the same thing – and that Socrates and Plato were similar men with similar outlooks on most things – that is – most things political, practical, and spiritual. Is this a correct assumption?
Well, as you may know, Socrates for one reason or another decided not to write anything down for public use or publication himself - although I am sure he jotted a few points down on the back of napkins, envelopes or whatever sprung to hand in those days for his own use. Ninety five per cent of what we know about Socrates we know from the writings of Plato who was the student and considerably younger friend of Socrates.
Now it is a well known academic argument (or discussion at least) as to how accurately Plato recorded the words of his mentor Socrates in his books– usually short “dialogues” between Socrates and various other people. On one side there are those who think Plato put a lot of his own words and ideas into Socrates’ mouth; and on the other side there are those modern day readers like me, who like to think that if Plato had a lot of respect and affection for Socrates, then he would generally be unlikely to put words into Socrates mouth that were not his but rather Plato’s own ideas and opinions. I also feel this approach to be mostly correct since Plato was not a “nobody” in Athens - but came from a very influential family as I will comment on shortly – and was perfectly capable and had the resources to publish his own books and papers, open respected academies etc - without relying on or having the need to put his words into the mouth of Socrates who seemed to be loved and despised in equal measure by the people of Athens. (On the other hand - since Socrates had in fact been put to death for his ideas by the state - perhaps it was 'convenient' to include his own ideas and views in the merely 'reported' words of Socrates. (?) )
However, this idealic and perhaps rose tinted view of mine is unlikely to be completely true… and it does seem that Plato did use Socrates as a mouth piece for some of his own ideas “to some extent”. This therefore makes the discussion very complicated and largely a matter of opinion as to where to draw the line between what Socrates “actually” said and thought – and what Plato records him as saying and thinking.
The above points said, it does seem generally accepted these days that the earlier writings of Plato – more soon after the execution of his friend and teacher Socrates – are more accurate accounts of what Socrates actually said and thought than the later writings of Plato. The writings of Plato are therefore usually collected into early, middle and later writings – with the later writings being regarded as more “likely” to include Plato’s own ideas; whereas – the earlier writings are regarded as being more accurate records of what Socrates actually said. The truth of course will never exactly be known, and of course one should not assume that ‘nothing’ Plato records Socrates as saying in the later dialogues is not accurate; in the same way that Plato might not of slipped the odd idea of his own into the earlier writings. This all makes for a rather ‘veiled’ Socrates – and to some extent this is part of the appeal of him. That is, whether consciously or not, we all have to create our own unique Socrates in our own minds - and have our own unique feelings and opinions about him. Perhaps this is no bad thing…..
Socrates also crops up in the writings of Aristophanes (The Clouds) and the writings of another contemporary Xenophon, although as mentioned above, the great majority of what we know about Socrates we know from Plato’s dialogues.
Does any of this matter if Socrates and Plato were similar men and thought similar things? Well in a way I think it does – or certainly it is a point to keep in mind when we refer to a Socratic-Platonic tradition rather than refer to these great names separately.
Socrates after all spent much of his time wandering around the ancient Agora (market and meeting place) of Athens – often without shoes, un-bathed, and wearing an infamous old coat. Plato on the other hand came from one of the richest and most powerful families of Athens – and was in a position to open and run his academy as a full time occupation as far as we know. How different in background and way of life can two men be? How similar can the political and social outlooks of these two men be? Is this not like assuming that every schoolboy who has a high regard for his history or geography teacher also shares his teacher’s political views and spiritual outlook? Or is this simply to trivialize the argument or play Devil’s advocate on my part?
So to draw this first email or “bite size chunk” to a close I should like to remind people that Socrates wrote nothing himself – and he no doubt had good reasons for this – preferring the special qualities of an oral tradition. The great majority of what we know about what Socrates said and thought comes from the writings of Plato. There is a healthy debate about how accurately Plato recorded Socrates’ words and ideas as oppose to put his own thoughts and words into the mouth of Socrates. Whatever our view on this matter is, the truth is unlikely to ever be known for sure. However, it does seem likely and is agreed by most academics, that the earlier writings of Plato certainly more accurately record the words and thoughts of his teacher and friend Socrates. When reading ‘middle’ and ‘later’ period Platonic writings we should give consideration to the fact that Socrates and Plato were not the same man, were born to different families, and had very different upbringings. This allows for the possibility of a difference of opinion between the two men on a wide range of issues in adult life – although for sure they had similar views on some things. We are therefore forced to create our own unique opinion of Socrates and Plato and how similar men they were. This should not be seen as a big problem – but rather part of the appeal of the thoughts and ideas they shared with us.
Links:
1) This link shows all the works of Plato and arranges them in early / middle / and later writings and explains the significance of this as I do above. It is worth just browsing the list to get a feel of the volume of work and time scales involved.
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